Monday, June 11, 2007

The Six Gifts of the Spirit of Vatican II

Hey! Well, Maryann just got done with a lecture series on the Spirit of Vatican II, and I thought I'd summarize some of the stuff we all learned with a quick index of the Gifts of the Spirit of Vatican II.

  1. Conscience: Considered by some to be the greatest gift, the gift of Conscience was imparted by the Spirit of Vatican II so that Catholics didn't have to listen to somebody else to know what was right.

  2. Freethinking: Second only to Conscience, the gift of Freethinking means that instead of having to rely on tedious research or reading smelly old books, you can use your mind to come up with alternative ways of making decisions about things

  3. Change: Considered by some to be the greatest gift, the gift of change means that we can never be stuck in a rut - everything is new, every day! As a matter of fact, that's one of the ways you can sin against the Spirit of Vatican II - by trying to "turn back the clock" or "do it old-school"

  4. Meat on Fridays: Hey! This one is obvious! Who doesn't enjoy a nice hamburger on Friday?

  5. Pride: Before Vatican II, Catholics weren't proud of their Church. Now pride is everywhere. You can see it in the beautiful rainbow sashes every pentecost!

  6. Doubt: This is a great gift - it keeps us from become Clericalists. What a beautiful thing it is to doubt everything. Combined with the gift of freethinking, it really keeps us on our toes! Of course, this doesn't mean that you can doubt the Spirit of Vatican II, but everything else is OK!

Thanks, Maryann!


Che' Lovell said...

Father Tim YOU ARE AWESOME AGAIN! I can't get over how you are always Eucharist to us all. That's why I call you Father Tim and all those people who say we shouldn't are NUTS! Because you know what is best for us regardless and things because. And maybe Luv Ya is right to say Great Mother Tim because you are nurturing too but that doesn't sound right to me because first of all you can't cook at all and everyone knows that to be a mother you have to cook.

But I agree with everything you said but maybe there's a seventh gift called RESPECT as in we learned to RESPECT everybody because everybody is COOL and so we should never tell them what to (I mean like wiccans and Earth Spirits and Socialists and Hugo Chavez). But if they are RIGID TRADITIONALISTS like that guy in which case they are just stupid or something.


Anonymous said...

This satirical blog about Vatican II is just stupid. Are you amusing yourselves? I guess so. Vatican II is one of the most important milestones on the pilgrim church's journey. All this obsession about the Spirit of Vatican II by you traddie types, well frankly I don't see it. Maybe its because my diocese (Boston) is fairly traditional.

But half the traddie types in the blogosphere are dissenters themselves, cafeteria conservative catholics in the sense of picking and choosing what they listen to.

How about the war in Iraq? Dit the pope not just remind George Bush that the vatican stands against that war, and that the Iraqi Christians are at risk of becoming an enclave?

Or how many of you will support Ron Paul? He is pro-life, anti-death penalty, and anti-war. He meets all the most important catholic criteria. But most of you are too big on war to support such 'cowards' which seems to include JPII, I guess, for some of you.

STAB CSS said...

Yeah....Death Penalty, Global Warming, War, Immigration, Social Justice, what about these dogmas? Ron Paul rox.

DeMaistre said...

I live in Boston as well. Although SOVII is my spiritual home, thank Gaia I have the Paulist Center to turn to when I need a physical place to contemplate the earth mother.

Thankfully, we Bostonians are not all as rigid as you portray. I was lucky enough to have such enlightened friends that I was invited to the very first VOTF meetings.

Hang in there SOVII'ers. You are doing the work of the great mother!

radtradchad said...

I take umbrage with being put into the same category as "Cafeteria Catholics". We merely faithfully dissent from non-infallible teachings like Vatican II. We're not the same at all.

~Fr. Chadwick LeJanvier, SSLI

Che' Lovell said...

Amen Winnipeg! But if you mean what was actually said at Vatican 2 was important I'm really not interested because there are too many latin words and things. And I don't think that Vatican II did ENOUGH to liberate womyn because as far as I can tell all the people at Vatican II were people like John Paul II and Paul VI and Joseph Ratzinger and they care more about opressing womyn than they do about pastoral things. Because whoever heard of John Paul II helping anybody get liberated? HUH?! I mean, he was all about NO YOU DON'T and STOP THAT and THAT'S NOT RIGHT and stuff. And the fact is look what happened to liberated countries like EASTERN EUROPE when he was Pope!

But the whole point of Vatican II is the spirit of Vatican II which I don't need anybody to tell me about because that's the whole point of the SPIRIT of Vatican II because we are all CHURCH together not just some people in Rome or something.

Just like that person who didn't like the fact we lived in THE SPIRIT of DOROTHY DAY and started saying that DOROTHY DAY wouldn't have agreed with us. But its not so much DOROTHY DAY as the SPIRIT OF DOROTHY DAY which is important, because THE SPIRIT OF DOROTHY DAY would agree with us even if DOROTHY DAY would not.

And you're right about Republicans (blech!) I can't stand them either. And its great your anti-war but that's NOT ENOUGH.


Britt said...

Che- the 7th isn't Respect, it's Tolerance. How could we forget that?!

swissmiss said...

4. Meat on Fridays
I thought you guys were vegans.

I miss Father Juno. Is he in the labyrinth somewhere?

Anonymous said...

Fr. Radtrad,

Please explain the scriptural support for dissenting from VII or the Norvus Ordo. I think the 'liberals are bigger dissenters than us' is one of the silliest arguments I've ever heard to support a dissenting position, and it seems to be very popular in the radtrad-blogosphere, where war-mongering bigots seem to reign with unfathomable hubris.

Personally, I believe my points of non-infallible dissent to be supported by scripture, reason, and tradition as well as various bishops and Cardinals. I don't believe any of the common liberal 'cafeteria catholic' points of dissent are against a full blown Vatican Council!

I think that the SSPX sorts are so awesome and untouchable that they ought to go to Iraq to practice their faith. Surely by the celebrant not facing the congregation, the problems of Iraq will simply melt away. This will prove that all of the problems of the world are due to the loss of the tridentine and VII! Since most of the radtrads feel that anyone who disagrees with the Iraq war are cowards, I'm sure they'll all be happy to pick up stumps, move to Iraq, and practice the tridentine mass in all its glory. I bet the Eastern Rite bishop will provide the necessary dispensations for sure. So why wait for the moto? Iraq needs you! Be sure to bring your AK money. Are AK's allowed at Mass?

All the Best, +B

Rembert Weakland said...

How come no one on this blog is consulting ME, the grandmaster of Vatican 2?

Shame on you.

Anonymous said...

The person who is "sr. fairah" is NOT trad-rad NOR SOV2. She believes in MIDDLE OF THE ROAD orthodox Church Teachings. And YES, we are amusing ourselves! :)

Father Tim said...


Hey! Great comments! I'm glad that you think the SOV2 'blog is stoopid (as the kids say - by the way, you have to be careful how you spell it, because someone might think you really meant "stupid") I think your 'blog is "phat!"

Thanks for clue-ing us in on Ron Paul - I have some reservations about endorsing him, but he looks pretty neat!

Anyway, I checked out your 'blog and it's super fly! You could give Maryann a run for her money! You've got that primacy of conscience thing nailed! Thanks for stickin' it to the Neocaths - I bet everytime they trot out that old "keys of heaven" and "what you hold bound" bit, you just want to hit 'em with something! I know I do!

Peace out!


Nathaniel said...

I wanna thank Che'....for this:

"I mean, he was all about NO YOU DON'T and STOP THAT and THAT'S NOT RIGHT and stuff." I laughed so hard my stomach hurt. Then I read it again, and the same thing happened. Then, a few hours later, it worked again. I will never forget this. It's beautiful....

THANK YOU!!!!!!! You made my day.

Miguel Cuthbert said...

Dear Winnipeg,

It is interesting how you jumped to a conclusion concerning the attitudes of the creators of this (parody) blog and assumed they were against Vatican II (and apparently that they were pro-war neocons who dismiss the concerns of Pope John Paul II and Benedict XVI).

I think I can safely say that every one of the contributors is devoted to John Paul II. None would deny the authenticity of the council or the validity of Novus Ordo. In fact those who hold JP2 in such high regard must also hold in esteem the council from which sprang not only the New Catechism but also the Theology of the Body. Surely you must be aware that it is not the council which is criticized but the extreme looseness in interpretation - the "spirit of vatican 2" - which has become a mandatum for holdng positions completely antithetical to it's actual teachings.

So take heart... the creators of this blog probably agree with you more than you think. Misunderstandings are to be expected but are the consequence of parody. I am certain that they would regret any pain they may have caused you.


paramedicgirl said...

Miguel, if anyone agrees with winnipeg catholic, they are pro homosexual and believe there is no sin attached to receiving the Holy Eucharist while living in a gay and sexually active relationship. They are liberal dissenters if they agree with wc. Are you of that mind?

Miguel Cuthbert said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Miguel Cuthbert said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Miguel Cuthbert said...

Dear paramedicgirl,

I think I can safely say that neither I nor the creators of this blog dissent from the moral teachings of the church and I joyfully affirm humanae vitae and all the teaching of the magisterium including Vatican 2.


Anonymous said...

'Paramedic Golden Girl'

JPII and Jesus are 'pro-gay' in so far as the group Courage was endorsed to promote celibacy amongst gays and reach out to them with pastoral sympathy. I sincerely hope that you aren't so biggoted that you are 'anti-gay' against the teachings of the catechism, and that you would condemn someone who is 'pro-gay' in obedience with the catechism. Dissent is another matter.


That being said, Paramedic is right that I confess dissent in some areas and I strive for greater obedience and understanding of TOB and article 6. I in no way imagine that VII allows any leniency in witholding sacred assent in almost all such areas of discussion.

I feel that Paramedic and particularly Kevin (over at the cave-lair endorsed by this blog) are monstrously bigoted towards gays and use 'spirit of VII' arguments to support bigotry. They also tend to try to use dissenter gays to support their schismatic SSPX support in a 'if gays can dissent we can too' sort of way I find wrong. So I am reacting to that a bit here, perhaps unfairly.

She would also be right to contend that I am a dissenter, and have not been able to reconcile myself with various 'article 6' catechism teachings. I am not alone in this, as the cover story of the most recent issue of Commonweal would attest. But there again, I don't claim that my dissent from that teaching is excused by VII, nor am I blindly 'pro-gay' in any way that would endorse promiscuity.

I'm simply honest enough to confess I cannot truly offer sacred assent to that teaching at this time. I am stll torn, watching to see if these monogamous relationships are good, or if the promiscuous in the gay community truly represent the end result of all homosexual relationships. In the meantime I am very opposed to bigotry and mean-spiritedness towards gays in the name of the church, as that is not what the church has ever taught.

I also think the pro-war element amongst conservative catholis has gone a bit far. With all their 'Coward' graphics, and ''How about supporting the troops for a change you liberal moron' they ought to paste in a picture of JPII. Or, better yet, why don't they go to Iraq if they are so brave, and help defend the Iraqi-catholic enclaves.

Simon-Peter Vickers-Buckley said...

Anti-death penalty is NOT Catholic. It is the product of a single Pope (hardly known for prudence), where in his "sure and certain" CCC it changes like the wind. Finally JPII spoke to only one of the three pillars that undergird capital punishment (leaving the other two wholly untouched) and even then, he left the final determination to the state as a matter proper to it.

Catholics who per se oppose capital punishment have no basis whatsover for their stance except their barely hidden political agenda and they are fighting God, period.

Hubris dressed up as charity.

Miguel Cuthbert said...


Have you ever tried to understand the Theology of the Body? Several recent books on the subject have come out. These may be useful to you.


paramedicgirl said...

wc, time for another catechism lesson. JPII and Jesus are not pro gay. They simply love the sinner and hate the sin, as all Catholics are taught to do. We've gone this route before, you and I.

I stand by my opinion and statement that gays are called to a life of celibacy, just as single people are. Gay people, as well as straight singles who are in a sexually active relationship are in a state of mortal sin and must not present themselves for Holy Communion.

Even if they (gays and singles)are in a monogamous sexual relationship, sorry, nothing changes. Sex outside marriage =Mortal sin = no Communion.

But I do thank you, WC, for being so honest with yourself in your last comment. Oh, and for calling me and Cavey "monstrously bigoted". Do we get some kind of award for that?

paramedicgirl said...

I think I can safely say that neither I nor the creators of this blog dissent from the moral teachings of the church and I joyfully affirm humanae vitae and all the teaching of the magisterium including Vatican 2

Miguel, then you are more in line with Church teachings than our Canadian bishops, who dissented from Humanae Vitae 39 years ago and still have not corrected their errors. BTW, winnipeg catholic is named after this dissent, which should tell you something. Have you ever heard of the Tragedy in Winnipeg?

Vir Speluncae Catholicus said...

Oh, and for calling me and Cavey "monstrously bigoted". Do we get some kind of award for that?

ParaMedicGirl (AKA: Fellow Monster Bigot),

I can always make a ribbon. And I can even enlist Fruit Loop to ensure that there's plenty of flair, style and garishness!!

But what do I know... I'm just a bigoted Homotaedet.

On a more serious note - thanks for pointing out what heretical and schismatic garbage came out of Winnipeg a few years back. And to think that someone who vainly attempts to paint him/her/it self as a faithful Catholic, would even associate themselves with that... I can't even imagen a "Catholic" proudly taking that debacle as a handle.

What a pathetic fraud.

Miguel Cuthbert said...


This will be my last comment here on this topic (though I may say more elsewhere).. but I believe all people - created in God's image - deserve at least a measure of respect, even people whose views seem incomprehensible to us, even people who do not respect us.


paramedicgirl said...

miguel, of course all people deserve respect. I never said otherwise. I stand by church teaching when it comes to homosexuals. Love the sinner, hate the sin.

Anonymous said...


For what it's worth i think that you have been very charitable and respectful in your discussion.

Paramedic & Kevin-caveboy,

JPII loved gays for who they were - created in God's image. I have a photo of him hugging a gay Courage member and telling him Courage was God's work. And BTW, I'm a straight married guy. I just don't like hate. And neither does Jesus. And yes, I am a dissenter, just like the two of you are. I'm just honest enough with myself, and my pastor, to admit it, talk about it, and work on it. And even blog about it. And sometimes dissent, on things like slavery, rebellious traditionalism, and usury, turns out to be right, even when not scripturally supported.

Thanks, +B

Anonymous said...

And Kevin Caveman, big tough national guardsman or US Marine or whatever you are, why aren't you on your way to Iraq to defend the catholic enclaves? Hmmm? Or are you a 'Liberal Moron' and 'Coward' like you claim JPII and I are for disagreeing with the war? What did you call us, 'Tokyo Rose'? Has anyone explained to you yet that Germany declared war on the USA in WWII? All the Best, +B

DeMaistre said...


Thanks for the info. I knew I had seen winnipeg catholic at a couple VOTF meetings. For some reason she always wears sunglasses and a floppy hat. It's not my fault I didn't recognize her. I always try to say hello. In fact, winnipeg, weren't you on the bus that we chartered to go up to NH for the support rally of Gene Robinson? That was a heckuva trip!

Anonymous said...

I'm male, straight, and married. So I imagine that was someone else you saw on the bus.